Russ Perry – THE Sober Entrepreneur

#39 Russ Perry – Author of The Sober Entrepreneur and founder & CEO of Design Pickle

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Welcome to self made and sober podcast. I’m your host, Andrew Lassise. and with me today is the sober entrepreneur Russ Perry, the creator, founder of design pickle, which is an awesome concept where companies I know for myself, I’ve had issues where I need, I need to get designs done, I need a creative person. I don’t want to hire somebody full time necessarily, but I still need things when I need things. And he’s able to identify that bridge that gap and have lower retainers and still be able to get the images and designs that your company needs to grow. So you can look professional without having to have somebody on staff is the author of the server entrepreneur, which I think literally off that title alone gives him the leverage to be the perfect guest on the show.
I’m really great. I’m excited. To talk about entrepreneurship sobriety to my favorite topics, so thanks for having me.
Yeah, they were two of mine as well. It’s kind of why this it started, you know, initially it was, well, I want to do something with business. And then I was like, God, there are so many good ones on business and not that it can’t be good. But you know, let’s niche down a little deeper. What else are you passionate about?
Riley? Well,
I’ll tell you what passion.
Well, that’s the next one. What are you passionate about?
You know, I think I think since I really changed my redesign my priorities in 2013. That’s when I committed to sobriety, I realized how much time that was taking up in terms of managing that part of my life. And so once I was able to sort of clear the deck, as I always say, I started to really look at how do I create a lifestyle that supports travel lifestyle that supports flexibility. I’m married, I have three daughters of all different ages, being able to plug into their lives. And so we now you know, really integrate those two things. We travel as a family every year in the summer to cool destinations. We just went to London and my company is supportive of that. So we are an online company but that includes my team we can be wherever we want in the world and still get the job done.
Awesome. And as a running trend on the show, everybody who got sober in 2013 is destined to stay sober for the rest of their lives. And at the time of recording this, it maybe we can finagle something to where the dates lineup but you’re one month away right now from celebrating six years. Congratulations.
Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
So what did it six and a half years look like for Russ Perry?
What do you mean? In terms of sobriety or
no well, like what’s going on in your life before you get sober?
Oh, rewinding, I understand six and a half years. Um, well, it was, it was a really hard time 2011 and 2012 was the lowest point of my life struggling with drinking, I had an affair with my wife, which was awful, obviously and that it was exposed my businesses were not profitable. Just about every key indicator of is your life working or not was telling me My life is not working. And I finally started to realize, look, I have to have a hard reset, which ignorantly I thought, well, my problems are just inside my business. So let me change that. I didn’t really want to admit it was with me and my habits and alcohol and my sedation, so 2000 12 2013, the early part of 2013, I kind of revamped my creative agency and I found a partner in Argentina, who actually was it was a great decision from a business standpoint, we, I reinvented myself as an agency owner, but it was only a band-aid. And I was still struggling a lot with stress, still struggling a lot with the pressures of making this business work paycheck to paycheck some months. And it was in the tail end of 2013 into October, that we were about a year or so out after the affair and a lot of marriage counseling. And I and I had this epiphany with my relationship with my wife Mika. And I looked at our level of trust and how much trust we could have and I saw that it would always be less than I want It if alcohol was still in my life, like she just wouldn’t be able to trust me, you know, no matter what. So I was very committed and having the best marriage possible. I mean, almost lost it. So I was like, I’m not going to do everything possible to make sure that this never happens again, and I’m never put in those situations. And I just in October 20, you know, 2013, October 22. I was just like, I’m done. And that was it. And, and, and like lead leading up to that I had never anchored in, well, maybe life would be a little bit easier if I cut this out. And the day I made the decision was like, the most relieving day ever of my life because all of a sudden, I was able to hindsight to see just truly how complex your life is, when you’re struggling with alcohol or any kind of sedation,
and your recovery early on. It was just, I can’t keep this up anymore and you just decided And I’m done. And then moving forward from there. I mean, obviously, there’s going to struggle in the beginning and adjusting to a new lifestyle. But what did the first couple of months look like for you?
Yeah, I mean, I think on October 21 2013, I saw my wife and I saw my relationship without call that I tried so hard to manage, and it was pretty unsuccessful. And it was like door number one or door number two. And I’m just like, you know what, I’m going to choose door number one, my wife, and then I walked through that and initially, I had been going to this really great church in Chandler, Arizona, Cornerstone church, I don’t live in that area anymore. And they had been marketing Celebrate Recovery for a long time. And I talked to my wife and she’s like, I just think you should go go do that. Try it out. And I remember Andrew going there and just having this like, emotional dump, like crying and just so much Emotion positive negative guilt. I mean, I don’t even I can’t even identify the emotions. But the one that I take, I still remember was that, wow, there’s a bunch of people who are like me that struggle with this too. I’m not alone. And that was key in terms of keeping focused on this new path the first few months. So I went to Celebrate Recovery or car as they call it. And, and it’s basically like a Christian 12 step program that they have, there’s a lot more singing involved. There’s like a band usually. And that’s cool. I like music. So, but it was fantastic. And I can and I really connected with the people and understood that and I think and actually, later on, I helped launch a car program in my where I live down in Scottsdale, Arizona at the church I go to, so I was really cool to help facilitate that with the team. They’re awesome. And putting that together? What are some of the lessons you learned in entrepreneurship that you applied to get that off the ground?
Oh, man, well, first, it was really frustrating because I don’t often deal with volunteer organizations. Most of the people I deal with are either paying me or I’m paying them. So we have really clear relationships. The first thing was I have to be very patient. Because people don’t move as fast people aren’t as communicative. There’s no project management systems that you can put everyone on. But I was really I committed my gifts which clearly marketing graphic design, I have the resources and so we actually created a really cool marketing package for car at impact church here in Scottsdale, Arizona. And so the A frames, the signage, the slides that they would use the social media posts, I helped do that and then my gift is not Time I don’t have a lot of time to be volunteering. So I help financially sponsor people to go get training inside of either 12 step or car programs and being able to empower other people but as an entrepreneur, it was like I kind of just made sure that I was asking the right questions keeping everyone organized. But I had I had a definitely install some patients on my end because when it was like month three, and people are debating over, like, where the logo goes on this flyer, I’m like, Guys, it doesn’t matter. Let’s just get the flyer done, but just put it out there
preaching the choir so much, there are so many times we literally just got out of a meeting with my upper management, and we were discussing, we’re gonna be shifting views with one of our employees who’s strong in a very, very specific way. And he’s working In different capacity, it’s like, you know, we can move him back here and fill this gap, at least in the meantime, and we are going on and on and on about, like, why it’s a good idea and why we should do it. And there it’s like, Guys, okay, we’re doing it the end like we don’t enter this anyway. Yeah, like we all
agree on it. And that is like, and you know, what else will happen from it’s like, Yeah, I know, let’s just, let’s get to the next thing, because there’s only so much time in a day and there are always 5 million fires to put out. And then even when they’re put out, there are 5 million other fires that you weren’t even aware of that now because the other fires are out. They just always keep, they always seem to keep showing up. So what are some of your strategies for putting out fires or keeping things organized so that fires don’t happen as frequently?
Well, I am a huge huge proponent of time management, time blocking. I actually a podcast with my wife good to be home. good to be home podcast. com is the website and you can check out just search time blocking. And we did a whole episode on my system that we use every day. I have three parts of my organizational system because fires happen when you are not seeking out the smoke. You know, the smoke is all around us in our life. And when we ignore it, that’s when fires happen. So every day I am making sure that I’m very aware of what are they all the what are all the touchpoints and teams and family things that I need to be doing. So I could go on for like hours about a basic step one, which you can learn about on my podcast on time blocking is what is the overall theme to the week? When are you going to be working on you know, stuff like this our podcast from creating things with other people, when am I going to be working on my own things that I need to be creating? When am I going to have meetings with my team? What am I going to do date night with my wife and kids and family. So I create these themes throughout the week. And then when it comes time for scheduling, I know exactly where to put things. And it’s consistent more or less throughout every week. Now yesterday, I was out half the day. So all my meetings got moved to today. So it was today’s a very crazy day. But it’s it’s like you have your blocks and each block is a different shape and you have all the holes throughout your week that each block can go into. So that’s, that’s part one and to create your themes, kind of start scheduling things. And then something that I’ve added, which I love is every morning I sit down and I’m you know, we’re on zoom video here, but if you’re just listening to audio, I’m holding up my written calendar, I write out my calendar on a loose sheet of paper. And I have a nice little collection of these because I’m just going to put them all in a binder one day, and maybe my kids will find it interesting. I don’t know I thought if I found like my grandpa’s daily schedule that would that would be kind of cool to see. But this helps me get real focus for the day, you know, how do I need to plan myself? How do I need to plan my energy? Making sure that I’m clear on that? And then if there’s any inconsistency is like I had a double booking today at four. So I reached out and got that cleared up. So back to your original question, how do we keep up fires? How do we tackle it? You have to be on the offense when it comes to managing your time. If you’re not on the offense, then guess what’s happened, you’re on the defense and that’s when you get hit. And that’s when you get knocked back.
I love that just that perspective of it. That’s such a great, such great insight. And I mean, somebody who’s in the digital marketing space, you’re using physical loose leaf. Is there any correlation or reason why you choose loose leaf over a digital version? Do you get distracted? Like I mean, for my scholarly mice, I don’t need the same,
right? If I have an if I have a let’s call it an analog system and analog asleep because I can just carry the guy around all day, and I don’t need to be on my phone, I don’t need to be on my computer, I don’t need to pull up my cow, but then I actually see a notification for something else. And, and so this allows me to be present and I don’t and I can just okay I have next step after this actually have an hour block where I’m going to be working on email and catching up and then I have a lunch meeting with a team member. And I can just cruise through my day and not get consumed in the busy work. When I always when I digital is essential, have to have digital, but when it comes to the day by day, I go to the analog so that I don’t get pulled into the whirlwind.
Yeah, I found that with my own time management system and I had put my, my assistant was basically my accountability buddy. And she, she just had a baby a couple weeks ago and now my whole accountability system is like I missed one thing one day and it was like, You know what? She’s not going to yell at me ever until she comes back. But, you know, having it having a digitally I’m in the same boat as you, I, I like the idea. I mean, I’m a tech guy. I like the idea that everything can be digital, everything can be cloud based, everything can be shattered. Doesn’t matter. If you’re in Florida or you’re in Alaska, it doesn’t matter. It all is seamlessly integrated. And while a piece of paper can can’t replicate that, at the same time, I found just having a piece of paper on my desk just as a reminder of what comes next, even when I get distracted, you know, with the squirrel brain. Because I mean, you throw me on YouTube and the days over and I’ve accomplished nothing. But when there’s a physical piece of paper just sitting next to you, and you just glance at it, and you’ve already blocked out what is important to them. And that’s one of the thing in Greg, our Gary Keller’s The one thing where he describes like you just write the one thing and that by doing it will make everything easier or unnecessary. And you’ve decided you block that out. tackle that get that done. Do you find yourself more motivated to be getting things done in the morning or in the afternoon? What’s your sweet spot look like?
Oh yeah, I am definitely a morning to mid-afternoon person and actually I’ve gotten my blood work done and my cortisol is like super good levels throughout the day and then at like five or 6pm it just crashes and so if I am not getting the bulk of my work done between when I wake up it’s like, I’m on fire. I’m ready to go to two or three I it’s I cannot get anything strategic done any high level thinking any of that after three or four in the afternoon. So all of my days are scheduled as such. Anytime I’m creating, it’s going to be before lunchtime. And it’s going to be right after I get through my morning routines. And I just jumped right into it. So today I’m creating with you right now I want to be in the best possible mindset. I want to be focused on. I don’t want to be distracted or tired. And I will plan out all of that in the morning. There is a hack that I’ve used, although it’s, it’s not as it’s not easy. And I believe I need to do something physical every day. I sweat every day. It could be weightlifting, it could be running, it could be whatever stretching yoga accounts to. And I love doing that in the morning. But if I want to re-energize myself, I’ll move it to the afternoon. So I will work in the morning and have a midday workout or a midday hike or run and then it actually kind of resets myself and I can get Go into the night with a lot more energy. Here’s the problem. It’s very easy to justify and skip it when you move it to the afternoon. So if I’m not really careful, I’ll be like, Okay, I’m going to do this in the afternoon, and I’m going to be there and then afternoon cousin like that. I’m not going to do it. I got too many meetings.
Yeah. Don’t you know how important I am? I can’t just stop in the middle of the day and exercise.
Right. So we will try to have him. Yeah, so it’s sort of like a really great hack, but also, like, very likely that you just figure out a way to get out of it.
Yeah, you can’t confuse the strategic part of it with, you know, underlying with it is it’s a form of procrastination, even if it’s, if it’s well-intentioned, it’s not I will do this at a later time but I guess coming back around to if you do block out that time to get it done. It puts you in a better position to Okay, it is noon. It is time For me to do the thing that I said that I would do, and that’s kind of like, you know, people, you’re trying to lose weight and eat healthy. It’s kind of the same idea as meal prep, you know, Sunday and you plan out all of your meals throughout the week, and then you don’t have to make the decision. Do I eat healthy for this meal or right? Eat that cake. It’s already been predetermined yourself who you don’t have to, it doesn’t matter what your emotional animal brain thinks. Because your analytical brain made it easy enough that your animal brain can’t just wander off. It’s like I Well, it’s easier just to eat the stupid salary that I portioned out already, for this time in the day. And I think, you know, you come back around to it. Putting these strategies in place, can work for a ton of things, not just entrepreneurship, not just diet and exercise and weight loss. It’s really just a design for living that can really be effective in your life. So, so I’m shifting gears a bit. What was the motivation behind writing the sober entrepreneur?
Yeah, so the sober entrepreneur was a idea that I had about a year and a half in after I started to see big results in my life, actually probably more like two and a half years. And after I got sober, I started design pickle in January 2015. And then 2000 in end of 2015, a little bit in 2016, I saw this direct correlation between my own personal decision to become sober and my superpowers as an entrepreneur, I was just amazed at how more focused I was the results that I was getting in one year with this new business were almost greater than the results that I was getting after eight and a half years of my previous business. And so I was like, Look, I want to go I want to go down this path and talk about it, but I Really the book is a memoir for my family and for them to learn from my past, you know, life and what has happened. My father to this day, I love him so much, but he struggles with alcohol, he still still has a he’s 6061 62 you know, like he’s, he is where he’s at. And he has he has a history of his life, where he’s had challenge after challenge around it. And he never talked about it. He never acknowledged things, rarely sought to try to conquer his own sedation challenges, but I was like, Look, I’ve I’ve gotten through this, I don’t want to just brush my past under the rug and pretend like it never happened, and I’m this perfect person. So I wrote a book and I put it all out there what I did the decisions I make the transgressions in my marriage and, and all of this stuff and then from that, I created a simple recipe for people struggling with any addiction based on we’re talking about habits and systems I put together actually learned this habit and system in this program called warrior that I went after. And it’s nothing unique to anyone who studied personal development, but it worked for me. And so I talked about how I implemented these tools and systems in my life. And that allowed me to really not just stay sober, but move beyond and create something. And I think that’s like my biggest pet peeve with any program like 12 step or car is that they do a great job of getting you to sober but they don’t necessarily say, Well, now that you’re out of the gutter. What do you want to build? What do you want to create? Let’s go forward. Let’s, let’s have visions for ourselves. It’s like no, let’s just stay in the same spot and talk about the same things. I didn’t want a book like that. I was like, Look, those are those are wonderful tools, I highly recommend the Community Association of any tools that have been existence and they’ve been around a long time and there’s they work. But like, let’s, let’s move forward, let’s build some things. And so, um, so one part meant more and then one part handbook. And really, that’s the two halves of the book and I I’ve actually my I have a 14 year old daughter that’s working through it and she’s, she’s, she’s a little reluctant to read it. I don’t think she’s that interested in you know, my mistakes, but that’s why I had originally done it now. We have sold thousands of copies. I give them away for free all the time. We have a perfect rating on Amazon for the sober entrepreneur of people whose lives have been impacted by the book. And and it’s just kind of out there. You know, I don’t really market it. I don’t really push it. It just it’s just there to help and support.
Yeah, and I think I think the title I mean, literally like the way that I came across You and I have actually seen I don’t know exactly how the algorithm put it all together. But when I was starting the web design portion of my company, which had pretty much just fallen in my lap from enough customers saying, Do you do web design? Do you do web design? I guess you know the retargeting algorithm. I was seeing design pickle ads in my Facebook feed long before this conversation, which is kind of funny how it all comes together. But I saw the title of the book really the sober entrepreneur and then Okay, Ross Perry, and then you know, you do a little digging and it’s like, hey, that’s the guy from from the design pickle, add. Yeah, it’s crazy how that all you know, small world, everything comes together and that you’ve got kind of that same background of my life went to shit. And you’ve had the entrepreneurship in your blood your whole life, I’m assuming, right?
Right. Yeah, no, it’s been there. I mean, my first business was right after leaving Apple Computer, Apple and Which was a tough decision. It was a really great job. I was working, I worked for them twice in my life. And the second time around, I was at the retail store doing like training as a creative. But I had this like, I want to do my own thing. I want to be in charge. I want to, I want to control. I want more control. I want more flexibility. I didn’t realize how hard it was going to be for the first you know, 10 years but tell you that. Exactly.
Yeah, it’s it’s definitely presented, especially this day and age with social media. It’s like a hashtag entrepreneur, like look at me on a beach doing work. I’m making all of this money, and you can do it to just buy my course for $1,997. Here’s some testimonials from people that have had their lives transformed. And then you go to and then it’s like and for only $10,000 you can get the continued support and you get access to my team and then it’s like for $50,000 I will give you a 20 minute phone call. Each month, you can get inside tools and tips. And then you know, it’s like college, you like $100,000 in debt, and you have nothing to show for it except for a piece of paper. But yeah, starting a business and grinding it out. I mean, like my experience year one, it was pretty much solo printer. And then I had hired a part time salesman, who then recommended it to his friend who made it full time job. And then, you know, we started building and scaling and, you know, one point is up to 50 employees and like multiple offices, and just all these things going on, all at once. And I was reading something recently and they said, Every new employee that you add, it’s like, multiplies the level of complexity in your organization by three x. Yeah, just like Jesus. What was what was I even thinking about, I mean, you know, the market if they’re actually asking for more and more. And I’m not going to turn it down. And I like how you had touched on things like car and 12 step that a lot of a lot of it is perfect for the very, very early on. Especially I know for myself, when I first got sober, one of my fears was, how do I even have fun doing this? Right? After a while, you know, come to realize that the problem was me all along. It wasn’t. It wasn’t actually alcohol, it was me. And the alcohol was just my symptom. And that’s just, you know, the fire that I was putting out that actually wasn’t the root of it. But then, you know, a year later, and it’s like, oh, I don’t want to just keep doing just this beginning part. Like I wanted something I want to build something and they kind of encourage this kind of where you know, I I just personally have kind of grapes where it’s like, oh, well let go let God with I’m, I’m all on board for but at the same time, you could, you could confuse that with, don’t do anything, just fall into your lap.
Well, and here’s what I say is like if I’m going to go if I like let’s say I want to
tackle some new fitness challenge, like I want to, I want to run a half marathon and I’ve never done that before. More than likely, I’m just going to hire or find someone that’s done it and I’m not going to try to figure it all out myself. I’m not going to try to run science experiments to determine what the best strategy for running is or, or do all of do, like spend an crazy amount of time online and I’m just like, Oh, you do that I’ll hire you. Or if I’m want to just get in general shape. I’m just going to go to a gym and take their boot camp class. And so why you don’t have to make it complicated and it’s I love what you said about It’s good for the beginner or the good for the person just starting because it’s just kind of done for you, you know, all you really need to do is just show up and commit and be super present and vulnerable. And you’ll get massive change and growth and it’ll help. But the people who are all I don’t want to be associated with that, or I’m not that kind of person or I’m embarrassed or whatever, you’re basically just making life a lot harder for yourself because you’re, look, you already have a family, you have a job, you have all these things you got to deal with. Take the easy path. And then once you know like, it’s like going to the gym once you’ve done the class for a while, you know how the workouts work, and you kind of you get you kind of feel confident in there and you’re getting some results. Yeah, then you could do your own thing or kind of explore and do other stuff. But in the beginning, just, you know, just make it easy. Just go don’t like get the program.
The process. It’s kind of like I discussed this a couple episodes ago. With one of my guests, Omar Pintos, awesome, awesome person, but we kind of were making the parallels of McDonald’s and 12 step recovery. And it’s kind of like McDonald’s will not give you the best cheeseburger, it will not give you the ultimate experience. But what a McDonald’s will give you is a consistent product that works over and over and over and over, it will be successful. There’s a gigantic keto training program. There’s a ton of brand recognition, there’s a ton of success in following the McDonalds path. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you open a McDonald’s and now all of a sudden, you know, you’re not competing for the best cheeseburger on the road. You’ll never get that with that system. So you, you go in, you learn the system, and then you can make tweaks and put your name on it. But I think that It’s so great because so many people are very reluctant, you know, to spend money on trying something new because what if it doesn’t work? Or I could do this for free and I love that, you know, in it ton of people are like, Oh, well, you know, I could I could just buy some software and do it for free. And it’s like, you don’t think that all these companies had software, you know, there’s like, the multi million dollar Equifax breach. You don’t think they had something better than Norton on their computer? genuinely think they missed that cyber security one on one, like, of course, like, there’s more to it than just those basic things. And, you know, now they’ve got this gigantic settlement as a result of not having proper security. It’s not like they sold it and got caught, like, they got hacked, they’re the victim and then they also have a class action lawsuit against them which is just like for a
couple of weeks. I want to go back to the McDonalds analogy. I love that one because I think there’s a lot of ego and pride in Imagine you’re like on the longest road trip ever with your family and you just totally miscalculated it and like, You haven’t eaten us. You left at seven in the morning and it’s like seven at night and there was no food anywhere. And you get to the McDonalds and you’re like, No, I don’t want to go to McDonald’s. That’s not good quality. It’s not organic. I bet there’s gluten there and F like your family’s melting down around you. And you’re just like too stubborn to go to the McDonalds it’s just like it’s like people in life they’ll be struggling without all the be struggling with addictions will be struggling with porn or drugs or whatever their thing is, and and and their families like crushing their life is melting down around them. They’re like, No, I will not go to this 12 step program. That is not who I am. And it’s just just like, shut up and just eat the burger. burger everyone’s gonna love before. fries, they’re genetically modified to taste amazing. So just eat it. And then like you can’t eat it for the rest of your life and you’re not expected to your get to fat anyway. So like, just do it now. And that’s, that’s what I love about these, these places that run these programs is they’re there and they work and especially when life is melting down around you, it gives you what you need, and then you can get stable and find the gluten free option eventually, but not when you’re starving. Like that’s not what you want to be thinking about.
Yeah, I think I think I need to reach out for some endorsement from McDonalds. It’s you
know, it’s funny is in the book, The E myth revisited by Michael Gerber is one of the best entrepreneur books I’ve read. And he talks about franchises and how they’re so amazing and one of the things he says is, is is back to McDonalds, he’s like, they’re they’re also run by teenagers and they still get the best output. So think about how organized they are. Well, the same thing is with with 12 step or other programs, they’re run by addicts and people who have volunteers and they still get the results. So it’s like, like, come on, just do it.
Yeah, there’s so many. There’s so many parallels, though, with sobriety and entrepreneurship, and putting these things together. And that was kind of the goal, you know, behind the podcast is that, you know, I can, I can set my intentions for the day, you know, like, like you’re saying with just writing down what your schedule is going to be for the day and say your priority is attending a 12 step meeting, like you can put it on there. And for myself, I love your strategy so much, and I just want to keep coming back to it because, you know, for myself as a new father, my son’s six months old, almost seven months in a couple days. Yeah. And, you know, I had, I didn’t want to be The stereotypical entrepreneur that is so busy that he misses all of the beginning years of his, his children growing up. So I have in my schedule, my wife hates this because I said, I’m going to put playing with jack in my schedule. And she said it should be a priority. So I’d say, I re prioritize my time to include time with my son. But you know, if I don’t set that intention, and I don’t get the awareness in the clarity, that that’s what my goal is, and how do I achieve that goal? Because you know, entrepreneurs, it’s not like a punch the clock job, it could be 11 at night, and I can have a great idea for something that just blows up. And I have to be on call and available for these things. But at the same time, I have to be available for my wife, I have to be available for my son, my family, my employees. So juggling it and having the priorities scheduling out blocking out time is just such a it’s so underrated but it’s so powerful because you’re beating your animal mind with your logical mind and basically playing to the animal mind strength you know we want the easy soft way and the easy soft way if you make it that you just follow the schedule it’s it’s absolutely incredible. Yeah, but Russ I want to be conscious of your time it’s been a great episode. Where can people find out more about you and your podcasts and your companies?
Right so well that’s a lot of places I exist online so obviously if anyone needs some design help, we’d love to reach out to you and talk to you just go to design pickle calm, but if you want to learn about either my book or the podcast, you can actually go to sober sob are calm. Without any, and I have links to both, you can check out the book, you can check out my podcast with my wife. It’s very fun, family-focused talking about entrepreneurship. My wife’s also sober. She’s been sober a couple years now. I think almost three now, so she’s really grown a lot in that journey. And then I’m on Instagram, just Ross Perry and I pretty much am on there to chat with people and support so if you have any questions, you can send me a DM.
Awesome, and I’ll be sure to have links to everything in the show notes. But Russ is a great episode. And guys, if you enjoyed the show, be sure to check out Ross everything he’s doing. leave us a review comments, let us know what you liked what you didn’t like what your takeaways were. And Russ Have a great day man. So great having you on.
Thanks, Andrew.

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